RCT: I'm a representative of a group of artists who produced this art show and who would like to ask you a few questions and then give the results to the local radio station, and the local art magazine to try and further the splash you made by coming here, and carry forward to the next (jazz)-festival and so on...
The first question I have for you, and I collected these questions from all the artists and others, is: Why is it important to teach our young people music and art?
WM: Because the Art and the Music, like all of the arts, I think they interpret the mythology of the country - of the era, of the epoch. It is really a painless way to teach many fundamentals, and it's 'cause there are always new artists, it is always being amended. It's a way to train the senses, to participate in (the) human, and in the heritage of mankind. And it's not painful. (laughter) First, you know, it might be a little boring, but going to a museum is not like doing homework. You can learn stories, and literature, and music can move you forward to something else.
We get more of a sense of who we are, where we are, where we want to be. It's an easy way to teach important things, through metaphor, through reenactment - reiteration...
It's all just re-enactment. I used to tell the kids: It's like the lie that you tell about the game or something you played in, you make yourself into the hero, and you start mimicking the referees, and that's dance. You're telling a story and that's like literature, except it's not written down - it's theater, it's drama -what it is is all reenactment. You are trying to make that event come alive to somebody else who was not there.
RCT: Tribal storytelling...
WM: Yeah! It all comes from that same impulse, except it (the art), deals with the greater themes. Because that's what's interesting. Not just interesting to us, but to all other people. That's what was interesting to Picasso, to Matisse, that's what was interesting to Shakespeare, to Beethoven, because that's what's interesting! Do you see what I mean?
(laughs)
RCT: Yes, I do.
WM: It can seem complex, but it is not.
RCT: That's how "it" lives...
WM: "It" is only that, whatever it is. "It" is only six or seven things. That's not a lot of things. It seems like it's a lot, but it's not.
RCT: No. The essential things...
WM: That’s right. We always need to have those clarified for us, even though we know about them, we still look at them and say: "Wow! Is that what that was?" We just keep going back to that same thing.
RCT: We forget this stuff.
I guess that's why I was realizing that, this is not only an inspiration for kids, but it is an inspiration for the musicians, who are here to try to challenge themselves with this music. And you come and play with them, and it's that kind of quality and force. It gets them back into “Wow! This is what I wanted to do!” Maybe they forget, and then they want to find it again ... the inspiration.
WM: It does that for us, too (the visiting musicians). When we are teaching them, we'll have thought of that same thing from another perspective ... even for the people who are parents, someone comes up with their child, you might have children yourself, you might have thought of that same thing, even if it doesn't have anything to do with you having kids, you might remember your parents being your counselors, your band director, or the songs you played or the band ... it is all the same ... it’s a continuum.
RCT: Those were like little "glows" in your memory, the little pearls, little flashes of light.
WM: Right, you're the old one. Forty years old, man, that's ancient!
RCT: (in an old man's voice:) I’m not that old, Wynton! (laughs)
WM: You know what I mean. Now it's you who is that. Then you get a clear understanding what those people thought when they were that … you'll be thinking that they were like some hierarchy of something that was an oppressive presence.
RCT: Yeah right, the authority ...
WM: Now it's like, O.K., you are the authority.
RCT: "And now, what do I do?
I'm in that position."
WM: You just see it in another way, you understand. It's just discipline, too.
RCT: That's right. O.K. Can you share a favorite memory or story about when you learned to play this music?
WM: There are so many ... One time when I was fifteen or fourteen, my father took me to see Dizzy. He said: "Yeah, Diz, my son is a trumpet player. I want you to hear him play." And Diz went: "Oh yeah, a trumpet player?" And he gave me his horn. He said: "Play this." He had a mouthpiece that was real different from mine, real shallow. So I went to play it, I couldn't hardly get a sound. Man, it was sad ... my dad was standing there, and Dizzy was like ... it was so sad, he couldn't even pretend like it was good! (laughing)
RCT: (laughing) You didn't even give him a reasonable excuse...
WM:.... all the silence was what he was saying ... He took his horn back, you know, “Yeah?”, trying to figure out what to say, all he could say, was: "Yeah!", one of those long "Yeah's" and then when he was finished taking his horn, "Practice mother****er!" (much laughter) That’s a good one for the kids.
I always tell them, so that's encouragement, it was encouragement to us. That's not new to tell them. That was a great encouragement.
RCT: I’ll remember that for my own work.
WM: So when I started practicing I thought about that, the impact.
RCT: I remember a quote that you said, I heard it, I guess, on the Ken Burns Jazz series, when you said that your father had said: "Look, if you want to be different from anybody else, do what other people don't want to do: practice."
WM: Right. "Do what they are not willing to do." That's what he said.
"If you really want to be different? Here is the key to being different."
RCT: Right. Can you share a favorite memory or an experience that you had in teaching this music to young musicians?
WM: I've had so many of them. It’s hard for me to tell you ... so many of them. So many kids ... people in Japan ... memories of teaching people ... groups of people.
Here is one that's kinda funny that I can think of, ‘cause it happened two weeks ago.
We do young peoples concerts in Lincoln center, at Alice Tully Hall, it holds 1,100 people. I write the shows for people who work in the education department, and one of them is a young lady who came to the shows, when she was about 13 or 14 years old, about ten years ago, now she is about 23 ... 24 ... We'll go back and forth.
I always mess with them, tease them, say something dumb, "do you like me?", just to be crazy, "are you a girl?" just crazy, absolutely no meaning, just absurd (when they engage in this conversation). "Why are you bullshitting?" That's what I always ask everybody. " ... instead of doing your work?
Anyway, we were talking about teaching Charles Mingus' music, what to do, call and response, so we had Herlan Riley, who is a great drummer, sounds like he is a reverend, and the band co-signs like we do in church. Now, after we do this we're gonna have Harlan preach another sermon for the kids, and they gonna co-sign. She says: “They’ll never do that! You'll never get them to co-sign!” So we had a bet whether they'd co-sign or not. I say, “Yeah, they'll co-sign, it's 2001, they'll co-sign.” But I didn't know whether they would co-sign or not. So we started doing it on the first show, and I was wondering now: Are they gonna co-sign? And they really did, they co-signed with so much enthusiasm ... "Amen!" "Have mercy Lord!" I had one woman in front fanning ... "Oh Jesus!" So it just was funny. I saw the type of brio, the gusto, that they just came to this. And then, you know, after that, we demonstrated the music. Bass played, trombone, alto ... call and response.
RCT: Right. I think, that's one of the most important aspects of the music, the call and response, that's why I love Charles Mingus' work. O.K., great. What is the difference between learning from a working artist versus learning from a formal educator?
WM: A lot of times the formal educators work in a system and you know they can't curse, and they have to treat you like they have a certain distance, 'cause they're dealing with numbers and they're dealing with a system. And, you know, they're also dealin' with people's sensibilities. You never know, man ... I mean, I played in places where people say: "Don't touch the kids." You know, I'm always puttin' my hands on you (touching RCT). "You can't touch kids, you can't tell them this" ... you know, you can't, it's formal, it's a stylized way of working. Whereas with a working artist, you know, you're just there. They'll tell you whatever, man... "You sound like shit".
RCT: That's what you gotta hear.
WM: That's it, whether you have to hear it or not. They're not gonna change what they're doin' 'cause you're there. They're not gonna address you like you're the most precious thing that God put on Earth. You're just there with them. I used to go to Wolmat Beardon's (?) studio, before he passed away, he was doing an album ... in his studio. He talked time. And, you know, I would just go there and talk to him. And I really didn't understand what he was talking about. At that time I didn't have the sophistication to understand what he was saying. He'd be saying, ... he didn't take the time to tell me what was happening. Formal educators, sometimes they have to kinda go along with you, you know. I think sometimes, not always, you know. A working artist, they're working, says: "Look at that! Fix that!" ... Gives you a certain work.
RCT: It's more like an apprentice system. More of a hands-on thing.
WM: "Go do this and be quiet." 'Cause they don't need you to be there.
RCT: No. That's right. You're there to assist them.
WM: They're (actually) helping you, you're not helping them.
RCT: Do you see any way in which music and visual arts can come together like it did here?
WM: This was extremely hip. I've never been in a place like this before, where the music is with things like that (the art). (Ted Nash appears backstage, having completed his solo, and Wynton comments: "Petal of a rose - a single petal of a rose."). This was beautiful. It made the space a whole lot more alive! Jazz, Jazz themes, different styles of everybody's art. A feel of community, where everybody is coming together, in a meaningful way. This is something that surely should happen more.
RCT: It creates a whole ... like you said: "space".
WM: A whole "look and feel". It just shows that all arts are related. Integrated arts I really believe in ... different arts coming together.
RCT: Your coming here really inspired quite a cross-community sort of thing. "Okay, let's make this a special thing."
WM: You can tell when you're here, that that is part of it. It's like a dream of mine, I have, of really integrated arts. Ballet, film and theater and music and visual arts, all arts come together in one space, on one particular theme. I read about a revival of the Greek idea of theater. They had songs that everybody knew, they had masks, and other visual elements ... and the feeling of community unfolding, resulting in literature ... there was something of various elements. I think it's time for a lot more integration, not just within the arts, but integration, period. It's time to understand how all the forms intertwine, bringing things together. They should be together because they are. Traditional ways sometimes get in the way. Not the real traditional ways, but the conventional ways.
RCT: All the arts seem to spring from the same source. They should work together.
WM: They're designed to communicate what you know, and what you perceive. That's what they are designed to communicate. Testify to existence. I love the visual arts, man, I love going to museums. I always take my kids to museums, though they hate it.
Voice: (imitating kids) Not again! Aw Dad! What did we do wrong? (much laughter)
WM: I tell them, well, we're going to go to a museum today. Once we're there, it's not so bad. I try to ask some questions: "Did you notice the difference between this and that?" It seems like they're just ignoring it ... but they're not, the do pick up on stuff. I guess it's just hard. My father, when he tried to introduce me to jazz, I said: "I don't wanna hear that, man." I always tell my kids the story when they say: "Why do I have to go to this?" When I was nine, there was a Duke Ellington concert in Newport in 1970. My father, he asked me, did I wanna go. Of course, I didn't want to go. So now, when I am asked, did I see Duke Ellington in 1970, I say: "No, I didn't go, because my daddy didn't make me." So I make them. "You got to go!" I was just fooling, because my father took me to so much other stuff. It's not like I am really complaining about it. I'm just sayin' that your kids don't set the agenda. It's like in the letter (referring to a letter that he just had received and read), kids don't like Jazz, I didn't like Jazz either. But now I am a Jazz musician! You don't go to school, you don't study a course, because it's easy to do. "What would you like to study today? Would you like to study ... ?"
RCT: Yeah, you have to guide them. Even if they complain.
WM: You have to figure out how to make it interesting for them, once you get them into it. That's part of our job. We're not looking for them to establish the curriculum.
RCT:(laughing) No, it would be a much different world if we did that. Briefly, what role does the musician play in fundraising?
WM: If you have something you want to do, and there is nobody to raise the funds for it, then you have to raise them.
RCT: It's a responsibility.
WM: It's a reality. If you don't know about that kind of stuff, then you don't worry about it. Because most of the musicians they have to work, they're not worried about raising money. You work to make enough money maybe to pay your band, but when you have programs and things, somebody has got to raise money, as long as there is money to be raised. It's tough, man. I know, nobody really loves fundraising. But if you don't raise the funds there is no education, no scores, no concerts, no musicians.
RCT: It's a responsibility.
WM: If you don't want to face it, why, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do the programs, they just won't be there. It's not like somebody owes you something.
RCT: Right, they just won't be there.
WM: There is a lot of other stuff there. So they won't feel if you don't do something it's going to make that much of a difference, 'cause it won't. Something else will come into its place, that might not be as good or as ... valuable.
RCT: That's a very key point.
WM: You are not doing anybody a favor. You have to do it because you want to do it. Another thing my dad always used to tell me: "Don't look for nothin', if you want to do this you gotta do this because you want to do it. 'Cause you probably won't get nothin' out of it." You won’t just come into this thing celebratin' -
RCT: You just roll up your sleeves and get in there.
WM: It’s something that you want to do. It’s something that you love doing.
RCT: That's what my father always says, why would you do anything that you hated to do? Are there any lessons or experiences that you learned ...
Ted Nash: You do look really silly on videocamera.
WM: (laughter) That's because I'm looking at you. (laughter)
RCT: Are there any lessons or experiences that you've learned ... that would help vitalize and ensure the survival of arts in the future?
WM: I think that for those of us who are in the arts there is just certain things. The first thing is that arts are leisure. This is a leisure thing. You have to have leisure time to take in a set of art performances. This whole system is in existence now with all the unions and all the vast amounts of money that's rolled out from underneath of peoples feet ...
They charge you astronomical amounts of money where you can't even make a recording in the United States of America. There is just not an endless supply of money. You have to sustain that type of work ... If the artists and the arts organizations don't think about doing this then it’s students in classes and institutions with people sitting in offices, and in art ensembles just complaining and acting like there is something those associations just exist to make sure they can sit down and make it up for themselves ... then you're in a world of trouble because the real world is not like that. And as long as there is people who are willing to raise this money and scramble to kill themselves on the road so the music is playing, great, but the custodians of the arts have to be the artists ...
It's not that way, cause if it was, a lot of the real smart leaders forms and stuff that you know nobody will ever like ... you have the responsibility not to sell your art and create something that is pop, just trite, but the fact that there is the function of money …You have to try to connect ... it humanizes your art ... the fact that ... it always shocked me how Beethoven would write a sketch or something ... really late in his career, telling this guy, a friend of his: “Wait ‘til they hear this!” and the friend knows ...
RCT: They're not going to respond.
WM: In the early seventies Picasso is comparing one of his pieces with one of Matisse's. I think it's interesting that he still wants them to like it. Picasso, he is sitting there, looking. There is one of his paintings and one of Matisse's-and he asks: "Who do you think is the heaviest?" Because there is still a thing in his mind, that he wants the art to have a certain type of appeal.
RCT: I don’t think any artist is ever 100% secure.
WM: Then there is some that take it into the realm of … it goes into a realm of abstraction ... cause you know a lot of stuff I go to in New York I've seen is like “Damn!”
Zoe: EJ is the artist who did this piece off the stage here and he does a lot of fundraising. Like the fundraising you’re doing.
WM: I would like to talk to him. I always need to raise funds.
RCT: Is there anything you can say or something you would like to say that would help inspire artists in all fields.
WM: All I can say is, if you have something that people need, you might as well give it to them.
RCT: You have it. People need it. You might as well give it to them.
